The Wynn Traylor Harvey II files
First of all here’s a new page of hate mail for all of you. This is another page where your comments are appreciated and read thoroughly. Some of these bastards know how to go on and on with the BS, and I know I don’t address every single issue. Your input helps this flaw. NEXT, I have indeed added a few more letters to the Jay the Mtn Framer files from last week. He would not stop emailing me his silly threats, and then switching to favor-asking. It was all just too good to not post. But I understand if you HAD ENOUGH Jay and ignore these. Just sayin’..

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24 thoughts on “The Wynn Traylor Harvey II files”

  1. You have to pay for medical care in the US and this is the sort of person (idiot) who may be the one your very life depends on……..I may never visit the USA again, when a creationist becomes a Dr, there is something VERY wrong with your country.

  2. That IDIOTS t-shirt has gotta be the greatest thing anyone’s EVER IMAGINED!! Now, if only I could order one (instead of the bumper sticker like the website forces me to).


  3. In response to Wynn’s rambling lack of proof, I offer a much shorter, yet definitive, proof of natural selection:

    In any given generation of any given species, do all individuals always survive long enough to pass on their DNA to the next generation? No.

    On average, are those members of a given generation of a given species whose dominant genes make them better adapted to the specifics of environment in which they compete against others of their species for resources more likely to to survive long enough to pass their DNA to the next generation? Yes.

    The case is closed.

  4. How the hell can Wynn major in medical science without a solid foundation in the principles of evolution? Knowledge of evolution is what helps us to better understand–and combat– the spread of infectious diseases. Maybe Wynn thinks all diseases are curses from God, but science says otherwise.

    I always like to direct people to this website: Understanding Evolution. It’s easy to comprehend, yet very thorough. The link titled, How does evolution impact my life?” has a bunch of links to other pages explaining the importance of this vital science in agriculture, medicine, biotechnology, fuels, genealogy, and even linguistics. If Wynn thinks scientists just pulled this stuff out of their asses one day, he is mistaken. Sorry, Wynn, but “The Bible says God did it” is NOT an acceptable answer for any of the questions you will find on your exams, and I doubt you will get away with using it as a thesis subject, either.

    I like how Wynn freely admits that he has absolutely NO evidence of God’s existence–yet he believes in him anyway. Wynn is not really serious about his faith; to him, it is all just an insurance policy. He may never need it at all, but it’s nice to have that assurance that it’s there….you know, just in case he might need it. Yet he has the nerve to claim that evolution can’t be true because, to him, there is no evidence for it! Do these idiots ever think about what they write before they hit the “Send” button?

  5. I’d just like to know what school our med-major is going to, so I can avoid it at all costs… No doubt it’s one of those wacky bible cult colleges that aren’t even fully accredited by the state. That would explain his failure to understand what a fucking theory is. I mean, I was taught the scientific method in elementary school, for christsakes. It’s not that difficult to comprehend.

    1. Observation. You make an observation about the natural world you’d like to investigate.
    2. Hypothesis. You formulate an educated guess as to the cause of the phenomenon you wish to investigate.
    3. Prediction. You make a prediction based on your observations.
    4. Testing. You test the hypothesis via experimentation, using a control and experimental subject to root out biases.
    5. Conclusion/Peer Review. Once the results are in, you publish them. If your test is unable to disprove your hypothesis, then other members of the scientific community duplicate your experiments to ensure you did them right. If they arrive at the same conclusion, and your hypothesis can not be disproved, it becomes a theory.

    Fucking simple.

  6. Lois, yet another stunning commentary. Thanks for the links.

    Wynn, when you get to Lois’ second link, be sure to review the portion explaining evolution’s importance to medical science. Interesting that you’re practicing science, isn’t it? I hope you didn’t think you were studying to become some kind of magical healer. But just in case you were, let us know when you find a job so we can cross that hospital off of our list of go-to locations for serious medical care.

  7. While most of Wynn’s rambling was annoying, the thought of him in an angel costume duking it out with Bob actually amuses me. His attempt at humor didn’t fail totally 🙂

  8. Bob, great work replying to Wynn, and I mean that most sincerely.

    If I was creating creation and saw that something worked, I would use that same design template over and over again.

    Besides, these bone structures follow completely different developmental pathways anyway.

    The God that I’m arguing for is utterly incomprehensible by our human minds.

    Obviously, the first sentence is contradicted in two different ways by the second and the third, but my point is that the sheer amount of WRONG in his letter defies imagination and makes my head spin. So it’s very cool that someone, namely Bob, has the patience to stand on the metaphorical beach, throwing the metaphorical starfish of stupid into the ocean.

    Oh, and Wynn should dress as Jesus when he comes to NY. That would be an awesome reinactment of the site’s animated logo.

  9. So sad to see a medical doctor undermine evolution with such paltry thinking. But, medical doctors are not actually trained as scientists. They’re very specialized technicians, and the machine they learn to fix is the human body. They’re taught knowledge, but not how we know what they’re learning or why they should believe it. At least, not as they should be.

    As for scientific morality, there is a movement afoot. Sam Harris’ recent book The Moral Landscape is quite intriguing.

    His thesis is that normative claims or value claims are actually their own special kind of factual claims. While apparently rooted in subjective sentiment, they are claims of value nevertheless reduce to factual assessments of conscious well being.

    What does it mean to value something? At a fundamental level, it can only mean that the person who holds the value or believes in the value derives a perceived sense of conscious well being from so believing. A person who tells you, “It is good that my flower pot sits atop my table,” is telling you that he derives a sense of well being from having his flower pot there. If he tells you, “My flower pot should not be moved from my table,” he is telling you he is deriving the maximum sense of well being possible from its placement. To move it would cause him to move downward – away from a peak of well being on the moral landscape.

    A person who claims that murder is wrong is signaling likewise. He values the lives of others. He thus derives a sense of well being from protecting and preserving the lives of others. He recognizes that his own well being is linked to the well being of other people.

    Value claims thus reduce to facts about conscious well being. And science can indeed study whether the assessments of our well being actually comport with reality. Neuroscience will eventually understand the nitty gritty details of what the mind is doing when it makes a value claim, and whether that value claim is objectively, scientifically correct, by examining whether the person or people making the claim and living their lives by certain values are actually deriving the well being they think they are.

    It’s a fascinating science in its infancy, but infinitely more promising than, “God made the rules, and wrote them in an incoherent text during the Bronze Age, with rules about how to keep slaves and sell your daughters.”

  10. “…medical doctors are not actually trained as scientists.” –Liveliest Crib

    How do you propose they come to a diagnosis of an illness? How do they devise a solution to a biological issue? Technicians are also scientists. They are taught science and the ways of science. Saying otherwise is almost an excuse for Wynn’s behavior.

    Sam Harris has some elementary level arguments for scientific morality, but it’s short of rhetoric for a movement. Add to it the works of Damasio and [especially] Pinker, and then you’re onto something. Let me not even attempt to summarize such in-depths works in one sitting.

  11. If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am, the term “doctor” originally referred to someone who was an expert in a particular field. Being a medical physician back then was more of a trade skill, like a blacksmith. I think that might be what Liveliest Crib may have been referring to. Of course, I could be wrong, and like I said, feel free to correct me if I am.

  12. Have you ever tried to get a PhD? You have to write this really lengthy document, known as a thesis, and defend it in front of experts in your field. This is necessary in order for you to become known as: a doctor. Since Liveliest Crib used the term “medical doctor” I have to assume he is referring to Wynn’s confessed profession, whether that is Wynn’s profession in reality being in question anyway. Even so, if Wynn claims to be becoming or being a medical doctor, having been down that educational route myself, I can attest to you that evolution is taught at the very beginning of the program, whether you move on to become a doctor or not.

    It can be uncomfortable for a Christian having evolution taught from the book “as fact,” as Wynn has said, because Christians believe a different story about the beginnings of being. They are offended by evidence that rocks or plants have existed for millions of years when their book claims to only thousands. They are the fellows in Plato’s cave, knowing only the shadows of their captors on the wall by the fire. They are thrown into our world and can scarcely believe us after their indoctrination. We can try and try, and still they will not see what is in front of them, in our math and under our microscopes and pulled from the earth.

    There’s a process. We observe the properties of a material. We find out mathematically how long it takes for that material to change in an exact way. We then date the material. It’s very similar to the way crime scene investigators or coroners determine how long a body’s been lying dead. There are signs. Rigormortis. Pigmentation changes. Nail growth. Decay. Environmental conditions. All these are examined and a time of death approximated. Even an estimate of the Earth’s age made for billions of years, if off by a full 90%, would still exceed the Bible’s claims many times over!

    The only way in which you are wrong, is that doctors do not practice in this way now. They are not mere technicians. They are experts. They go through a long and multi-faceted program to get where they are. Ignoring some of their education because it conflicts with their religion is no excuse.

  13. All I know, Alice, is that I wouldn’t want Wynn, or anyone like him, being MY doctor! Instead of giving me a real diagnosis, he would tell me all about how I am being cursed by God, and must pray to Jesus 5 times a day in order to make those migraines go away. Or maybe God is into goat sacrifices these days?

  14. Hey Bob, I like the point you made when you said “Believing evolution is not a choice.”

    The point being: Our beliefs are really not a choice. Our beliefs will automatically align with what we are convinced of. I can’t just suddenly [believe] that Jesus Christ was a real god without some actual reason/evidence. Choice is not really involved in the matter at all. I don’t CHOOSE to not believe in Jesus. I just automatically am convinced that he is make-believe. If some new convincing evidence were to suddenly appear, my mind would automatically change itself. So when a Christian tells someone that they really should reconsider repenting and accepting the lord jesus as your savior, they need to start realizing that it is not an option. I don’t have the ability to believe such tales. If you want me to ‘pretend’ that I believe you, I guess I could do that, but what is the point in pretending? Will god not know that I am just pretending to believe that jesus is the lord? In fact, isn’t ‘repenting’ to pretend that I believe in Jesus?


    To any Christian, that believes that a human being will burn in hell for the crime of NOT being convinced that jesus is real: This idea alone proves that your imaginary god is completely unfair and evil for the way he treats innocent people. Punishing people for something that is not even their choice? I don’t have the option of ‘believing’ what you tell me to believe. So I should burn in hell for being this way? Retarded is an understatement.

  15. Just a clarification, folks . . .

    In no way did I intend to excuse the hate mailer’s ignorance. I was lamenting the state of education in my home country (USA). Yes, I was referring to the MD program. My father is an MD, and he and his friends have lamented that they did not really receive “scientific” education in medicine. They had to memorize a lot, and learn how to diagnose diseases, but were not taught or even called upon to understand how we know what we know about the body. Understanding evolution is crucial to medicine, but one can get through med school without it. (Of course, my father went to medical school long ago. If things have changed since then, I will more than happily eat my words!)

  16. @L. Crib: wasn’t attacking you in the least! But I have to say — you’ll see evolution in Biology 2! That’s the ‘big’ secret I’m trying to tell you — every med student takes bio 2 (I did) at the beginning of the med program. If the students didn’t get taught evo they’ve been duped. Bio 2 is completely a class about the types of species, classifications, and origins. It’s pretty intensive. I actually started a sort of odd friendship with a fellow who sat across from me who was Christian and didn’t believe in evolution. Our friendship started over our many debates.

    I can see your listening to your father, as our parents share much wisdom with us. I suppose this sort of thing may be geographically oriented, as well. Having been in the educational system so long, I can attest that not every program is created equal. Not every program will require the same classes. But I’m guessing Biology 2 might be one of the exceptions, being such a low level class, which is what makes me so incredulous about the whole idea of a med student not learning evolution!

  17. @Alice Priest

    I wasn’t trying to say that medical physicians aren’t educated, I was pointing out that hundreds of years ago being a medical physician was more of a trade skill. Nowadays medical physicians undergo much more intensive training.

    A friend of mine has his PhD already, and I am also going to school to get my PhD, so I’m pretty familiar with the process. I’ll have to write a dissertation, usually around 300 pages, and it has to be on an original topic. To get a PhD, you essentially have to contribute to the pool of human knowledge. Then you have to defend your dissertation to a board of PhDs who will try to rip your paper apart. If you can successfully defend your paper, then you get your PhD.

    It’s not as hard as it may seem, because my friend told me that your advisor(s) will do everything they can to help you along, as it looks just as bad on them if you fail as it does on you. I’m not saying it’s not a lot of hard work, but it’s not as stressful as it may seem on the surface.

  18. Look, I’m pre-med as well and on the FIRST day of Bio, we talked about the Nature of Biology and yes, Darwin was included and even a definition of what theory means in the scientific community. If this guy is unwilling to accept that Darwinian evolution makes a lot more sense and is better supported than magical universe creating pixies, he has no place in the medical field.

    I sure hope that he scores below a 27 on his MCAT and gets a less than 3.3 GPA, otherwise, we may see this clown in the medical field. Of course, I have every reason to believe that he is full of shit.

  19. The first thing I try to find out before I go to any doctor unless its an emergency is whether they are a creationist or an atheist . I will never leave my health in the hands of anyone who could let me die and then just say “It was Gods will “!!!

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